[00:00] Teaser/Elijah: Yeah, I guess you were really vulnerable and I appreciate that. I believe it takes courage, or it does take courage and it’s also going back to innovation. Brunette Brown she said vulnerability is the birthplace of creativity. See change in innovation. If you’re not vulnerable again to the uncertainty being there and you try and kind of like make it perfect, it’s not going to happen.
[00:17] IM Intro: Welcome to the Innovation Metrics podcast, where we bring you the latest on innovation management. We provide insights on how to measure innovation, innovation accounting, and managing the uncertain process of developing new, sustainable and profitable business models. You can find links to the main topics covered in this episode and information about the guests and hosts in the show Notes or go to our blog on innovationmetrics co. Your host is Elijah Eilert.
[00:47] Elijah: Hi everybody. Today marks the 10th episode of the podcast. My guest is Oliver Dura. We are talking about innovation, but also doing a retrospective on the podcast and my experience with it. I’m really happy to be doing this with Oliver, who has been my first guest ever. Hi Oliver.
[01:08] Oliver: Hey, Elijah. Thank you so much for having me again.
[01:11] Elijah: You introduce yourself on the first show, but it’s probably fair to do it again. Where are you? What have you done? Maybe really briefly, what are you doing right now?
[01:20] Oliver: Sure, yeah. I’m Oliver. I’m a Swiss born and raised, probably global citizen would fit best. I’ve been around the world a few times. I like foreign languages, foreign cultures, and my dad is an entrepreneur, but a former entrepreneur. And I’ve realized that has really impacted me quite a lot because he, when software was becoming a thing, then wanted to convince his employer to do more software development and solutions engineering and exploit different business models. But the company then didn’t see it that way. And long story short, 13 years later, after him having quit and built his own company, his former employer bought back his company. As far as I know, they’re still the fastest growing and most profitable unit of that structure worldwide. And so for me, that was a great learning, two things. One was it was a steep learning curve for my dad and was pretty tough, but it was also a great growth opportunity. And the other one was that could have been more synergistic and it could have been much more of a win win. And I think that has been what I’ve been pursuing pretty much ever since. In addition to that, my mom is ambidextrous because where she went to school, there were still what is it called? The religious clerical teachers. Sisters. Nuns. There you go. Thank you. Nuns. And she’s left handed, naturally, and that was the hands of the devil. So she needed to learn how to write with her right hand and ended up being Ambidextrous. That’s probably the other influence. I’m really a fan of the organizational ambit dexterity approach where you have exploit on the one hand side or execute, where it’s your core business and where you know how the sausage is made and it’s more about efficiency, making things faster and better that way. And on the other hand, the explorer side where it’s unknown and you navigate uncertainty. You navigate the unknown and derisk and you innovate, right? You go about building new services, new solutions for new problems, potentially new customers. That’s basically what I’m doing with my own company with SwizzLEAP. But before that and we work with potential, we catalyze the potential of pioneers to innovate with impact. Because that’s the other thing that I’m really passionate about is actual impact and having social impact and doing well by doing good is what imports is important to me and that’s what I’m after, what I’m pursuing. And since last time we spoke. A lot of things have happened and I’m really excited and grateful that I get to do this with as much corporations. Let’s say corporates. Larger structures. Larger enterprises. As small and medium businesses as much as startups and people who just start out and also have the opportunity to teach at the university level to be an innovation coach with Zurich. Their executive MBA innovation sorry. I’m the innovation coach. But it’s executive MBA in digital leadership. And that is a great connection, basically bringing together the world again of entrepreneurship and also entrepreneurship because there’s executives who then basically choose to do an innovation challenge either for their company internally to create value there or actually potentially then start out on their own and create their own venture. So that’s exciting. And have been ten years with Nestle before that and have spent three years with Negro and have always been lucky enough, probably also pushed my own luck by building as an entrepreneur initiatives from both sides explore or exploit to create as much value as possible that I’m really passionate about. So that is what I do, where I’m at. And I’m sure we can dig a bit deeper.
[05:31] Elijah: Yeah. Thank you. I primarily know you now personally, more than anything else. We connected on LinkedIn, have never met in person, but it doesn’t feel that way, really. Right. It’s really interesting. Yeah. So we know it up a bit here and there. Or share other things, personal things. Thank you so much for that. Anyway. Yeah, I thought it was a really good do you like the perfect guest? To where? The perfect cohost or guest on the show today? Because since the first episode I came upgrown a little bit or something. I don’t know if I have it makes me laugh.
[06:24] Oliver: You’ve had some amazing guests. I was really impressed and then had great listening experiences. So congrats. It was really nice.
[06:33] Elijah: Yeah, maybe I think you’re also the reason for that. And I think every guest is the reason for the next guest. Right. I had zero traction and nobody asked the question of how many listeners do you have? Or something like that. And I feel like you and then Tristan shout out and then every following person has contributed to at least the ability to invite wonderful guests. Right? And I think that’s probably it’s interesting that you said. If I think about, like, in a retro perspective, what went well, what didn’t go well, you know, what should go next, what should we do next? Like, what went well was really the ability to have amazing guests and not just having them as guests, but it felt so natural, was unbelievable. I was nervous right in the beginning, my guests were always warm and amazing guests. And I think on what didn’t go well, I think the biggest thing was that I just interrupted them way too much. Like, stupidly, not right. And it baffles me a little bit because I do customer reviews a lot and since I record them a lot or have done it a lot, at least, right? And I always try to record them. I know the different opinions out there on it. Like, I’m a big fan of it, so I know that I can let people speak in certain circumstances. Right. And in this podcast, I think I get so fired up. I’m so truly passionate. Right. This is not just the purpose of this podcast. Has and will be one of the purposes to learn to challenge my thinking, to see where I’m wrong and so on. But yeah, it’s horrible. There were moments where I was like, this is not okay. I wrote people like, sorry emails, basically, like I said, sorry if I ever interrupted you, like, in that kind of thing. No joke, right? So I feel like that needs to further improve.
[09:05] Oliver: Okay, well, it’s interesting what you just said was also my assumption for the reason why you would do that, because you were super excited. I remember in our first episode that we recorded, your thoughts were, okay, I want to ask all these questions, but which one do we choose? And then it’s like, okay, let’s go with this one or maybe that one. And then it’s like I guess it gets challenging to stay mindful and just explore one train of thought before switching to the other one or seeing how they connect. And I guess that’s actually also something that I sometimes do even when speaking, I have this long thought in my mind and then create this long sentence which is like, enter you know, there’s so many I don’t know how you call that in English where it’s like sub sentences. Right. And I know what I’m trying to say, but it gets really challenging for the listener to then be like, what was the question? Weren’t there like two or three questions? I guess for me personally, that’s a challenge anyhow as well. So just formulating short, clear, concise questions and just like and then listen.
[10:20] Elijah: Yeah, I believe that. I believe there’s just like right now, maybe in this moment, I’m not quite sure I’m discovering myself while I speak or so. Right, so that’s one thing. And then I’ve got several streams of thought. Yes. And I want to pack them all in there and then even worse, I probably assume some prior knowledge to the topic you’re talking about. Right. And I think part of that last one is there because we are a niche podcast. I am happy to be a niche podcast. I always say we’re not a dopamine podcast. I say that to my guest. We’re not just here too, you know what I mean? Like some innovation workshop with a fake example for the 50th time where you control everything and hype everybody up. Right. Primary deliver. I don’t know, some neurochemical cocktail. Sorry, some biochemical cocktail. Yeah, I think I’m somewhat happy with that. I can live with that. But the other thing is not so much.
[11:49] Oliver: And I’m wondering how do you feel about what were the reasons why you set out with the podcast? And now, after nine or soon, ten episodes, how would you say? Have you been fairing against those goals? And potentially have they evolved?
[12:07] Elijah: Yeah, one intention is definitely to create content. So that’s sure, that’s sort of a no brainer. I do write a little bit more efficiently now, but I thought some very extroverts it’s natural for me to meet new people or natural pleasant to meet new people. Right. So that’s always something I look forward to and I thought that’s a good combination. But then it’s definitely like, can I just speak to people that I’m genuinely interested in and what they have to say? Right. Imagine who had on the show so far. Like, every single one. It’s just incredible. Right. Some of the best of what we do.
[13:05] Oliver: Impressive.
[13:10] Elijah: So I learned every single time I’ve got to prepare, I got to read up, I’ve got to sometimes more, sometimes less, so that will stay and that will stay. So those two things definitely are motivating. And then yeah, building relationships. Like recently, I want to form a guest, I just flip the question, which before I wouldn’t have done that way or something. That’s pretty cool. And then what became very apparent for me is that it’s very confronting for myself to do this, actually, because when you go through what I just said, I didn’t like the way interrupt people and then I can’t stop it or couldn’t stop it. The next episode, I remember one episode where I was like, I hacked it now and then you listen to it because I added it myself still. Which has to stop, by the way. Not for the self confronting reason, but for this time consuming yeah. So I get very confronted with my flaws or what I perceive as flaws and where I see growth opportunities, that alone is a good reason to continue.
[14:47] Oliver: Yeah, sounds like a reason to start also. I really like that. So learning from your guests, but then also while doing, while going through the process of preparing, recording, having the conversations, also learning about yourself afterwards when being confronted, as you call it. I love that.
[15:12] Elijah: Yeah, I think. Let’s see. Got some interesting people lined up as well. Really looking forward to it.
[15:22] Oliver: Cool. Who would you dream to have on have maybe not yet there to ask to come on the show?
[15:33] Elijah: Yeah, that’s easy. You know I’m a fanboy.
[15:48] Oliver: All right, Eric, if you’re listening yeah.
[15:52] Elijah: I have the chance to there are several pathways opening up to ask. Like, I don’t even know if I want to have this in the episode right now. It makes me blush. But yeah, I’m super. Like, for me, like Eric Ries and actually Tristan as well, who have the I’m really fortunate to collaborate with, but both of them have been very influential for me. Eric Ries has been has been very, very influential. And then the reason for many obsessions and I’m very thankful. That would be fun, interesting.
[16:39] Oliver: I would love to listen to that. That’d be really cool.
[16:42] Elijah: Yeah.
[16:42] Oliver: I mean, honestly, for me personally, The Lean Startup, when I read it, it has since become almost like a way of life, a way of not just derisking professional challenges and trying to find a way to create value for problems, get the problem customer solution fit right and so on and so forth. And I love how he was basically saying he’s like, we’re still at the starting point, we still need to explore more. We haven’t figured it out yet. And it was in many ways relatively high level still and not that blueprint that I was kind of looking for in terms of like, okay, what to do now? ABC leading to XYZ. But nevertheless, the way of the breadth and the scope of potential or possible applications of this way of going about life. It has become almost a way of life for me, even on a personal level. Getting clarity about my own assumptions and then going about finding designs of experiments to then be able to decide whether or not that was actually something to double down on or to pivot away from. Right. Has been, I guess, also very influential for me. So yeah, I totally get why you’re keen on having a conversation with Eric.
[18:03] Elijah: Yeah, it’s really strange. It’s nearly like the whole meaning, I don’t know why it means so much to me. I always say this. I’m not sure why this means so much to me. I’ve been a self esteem before in a podcast, like as a former founder and big failure in that process. I just taught myself and other people big stories. I never lied, I never intentionally made stuff up, but I made stuff up and wrote business plans. Okay, whatever, right. But it was never just me. It was then somebody then I inspired along the way, several people. And I said that before in the last episode with I shared that, but that was for me. Somehow it struck an earth in me, the fact that this can be done more objectively. And it’s not just because of my own life. But how I then can build relationships based on that, I don’t know if that was too cryptic right now. You see, that’s one of the mistakes I usually make. So by understanding the uncertainty better, it alleviates some pressure for me when they’re doing an endeavor together with somebody else. Right? So that might be just my personal psychogram and like, some guilt structure, but it is, as I said, it’s nearly too meaningful. And Eric didn’t even start. Like, Eric is still basing his principles or what he brought to us on things that the scientific method. Eric Ries didn’t come up with a scientific method. Right. And we’re not scientists every day.
[20:25] Oliver: I’m sorry to see now I made your mistake. I interrupted you. Sorry. No, I think that was valuable for you, what you shared. That was valuable for me as well, to understand. Because when you said the understanding the uncertainty better, I would almost wager that it’s not just understanding, it’s accepting. And tolerating it, to a degree, at least for me, that was what it was. I’m a recovering perfectionist. For me, when I was in my corporate career, everything was about perfection. And it wasn’t progress, it was perfection. It was really like and frankly, it started way early, probably even as a student. I must have been giving some project co mates that we worked in a project to get a group project a hard time because I was like, yeah, but we’re not done yet. We need to get 80 20. Pareto wasn’t working for me. It was always more, and we need to go to perfection. And then the Lean Startup approach and other tools and probably skills as well around that ultimately led to a different mindset for me, where it was really about like, wow, there is this uncertainty, and it’s okay to be with it and to tolerate it. And yes, you can navigate it. And that’s what I help people in organizations and teams doing today because I’ve been there myself. And at a certain point, it’s just you cannot get it perfect. There is uncertainty. There will never be perfect information. And that fact to deal with that, the first step is really accepting it, I guess. And I had a hard time accepting that. And what I hear from you sounds a bit similar. It’s like it’s not just understanding it. It’s really also just accepting it that it is there. Does that sound fair? Maybe that’s also too high level. I don’t know.
[22:13] Elijah: That’s totally fair. I don’t know if I can find that in myself.
[22:20] Oliver: Okay.
[22:21] Elijah: Yeah, I’m not sure. I think I see risk always everywhere.
[22:28] Oliver: Okay.
[22:29] Elijah: I was joking that I’m always Head of Risk, but I’m taking a lot of risk. It’s really interesting. I don’t quite understand my own risk appetite. It doesn’t really fit with other parts of my personality. I’m really weirded out by it. I just spoke to somebody about it who is going to master some psychology and stuff and I don’t quite understand it. It’s something I would actually like to understand better. Well that’s what this just triggered me at least to the acceptance of risk. I think I accept risk. I understand maybe I over emphasize my risk in there. But then where you measure risk well in the economic economic decision, risk reward clearly goes together with entrepreneurship. I take exponential risk, not exponential. I want to say I take a lot of risk and I thoroughly understand that. Or took I take less now, right? A lot less. But I took a lot and there are other areas where it took a lot of risk. I mean I was hitchhiking through Europe and I was like in stupidly dangerous situations like on a daily basis, like ridiculous looking back, like near death kind of stuff, you know, and whatever. So I don’t get it. I don’t get that. So maybe the regulation, I don’t know, maybe regulating risk better or something better. But I don’t think that what you just mentioned if you just mentioned just seeing it or just accepting it I don’t know, maybe I don’t understand what you said.
[24:30] Oliver: Well what I meant is really the fact of accepting that it’s not going to be perfect, that there will always be residual uncertainty and accepting that was for me a big step to be like well it doesn’t have to be perfect. It’s okay to have imperfect information. Like typically when I was living in Burma, there was no data like in what I was used to where you get the percentage of the basis points of market share, revolution, et cetera. And there it was, very imperfect information. It was sometimes based on sample checks in stores, how are products doing? Are they like leaving the shelves? Are they getting stuck on it and which type of channel, et cetera, et cetera. So based on that you had to make educated guesses literally on which step to take next to foster customer adoption, consumer liking and recommendation and referrals and so on and so forth. And I was extremely used to having perfect or near perfect information and the tools to get that. And then when you all of a sudden you don’t have a huge part of your arsenal that you just use too and you realize, well there is this uncertainty, there is this residual risk that is not going to be reduced by much. Now, how do I navigate that? And actually I found that kind of overwhelming at the beginning and then very exciting because that’s what life is, right? There’s no certainty ever really. And if then that’s you being prone to an illusion, I don’t believe there’s anything I mean that’s a whole other topic. But that’s why I think tools that Lean Startup collected and maybe developed a little bit further has been extremely helpful in this kind of context. And then I had a conversation with Bran Cooper. Now it’s already like a couple of years ago, I believe, when he was in Switzerland last. And we agreed on the fact that even though there’s this exploit explorer kind of dichotomy, that even when you’re on the side where you think things are known, you still need to explore your way through execution because stuff like covet happens, there are black sheep kind of events, black swan kind of events. And then all of a sudden, from overnight, what you felt was certain and steadfast and given, well, it crumbles. And then what do you do? And if you’re then not ready to accept that and to find ways or like to have ways to deal with that new uncertainty, then that becomes really tough. So I think that is what I mean. There is always this uncertainty and it’s crucial to be able to embrace it and to navigate it.
[27:33] Elijah: Yeah, probably. I didn’t listen. Well, that happens sometimes on the show. Yeah, that obviously triggers now everything about innovation accounting, right? So I have when Tristan here on the show spoke about ranges and why they’re so important for innovation accounting. It’s interesting. He thinks. And I totally agree now. That ranges so instead of using deterministic models well. Instead of using one number as an input variable in a business model. Using a range is one of the things we do in innovation accounting because that’s how we basically quantify our uncertainty around that venture better. So not just the best case, worst case scenario, and we’re not going to go too much into this right now, but we’ve got lots of resources. Find the link below. But yeah, he says every business case should have range based models. Meaning even where there’s very little uncertainty, I always use the example, you already have a shop for hairdressing in the same town, you want to open another one, right? So you know most of the things, you know how much you have to pay your staff, you know how much you can charge, you know how much the outfitting is going to cost. Now the difference is how much foot traffic is there. Can you get more stuff? Can you scale? There are some uncertainties, but most of the things are known. But it’s still worth putting a range on it rather than just one number. Right, so what then? Calculating these best case, worst case scenarios, trying to loop back to what you said? Yeah, that uncertainty exists everywhere. The question right, so it’s just so tremendous when it comes to innovation transformation. Innovation is just so ridiculously great.
[30:07] Oliver: Not one number principle, but the range, like expressing uncertainty in a range and not trying to make believe that there’s going to be one number, whether it’s the high low, medium scenario, it doesn’t matter. It’s always going to be more or less, it’s always going to be in range. And that’s the reason why you call confidence interval. Right? It’s like, okay, so what is the likelihood that any number within that range is going to be the one that is hit? And basically it’s about increasing your confidence and meaning decreasing the risk of deviating too much. Right. But even then, depending on, I guess ultimately it’s just whatever happens to a degree, what are you going to do next? What is going to be the next action? And how can you continuously build upon the additional knowledge that you build? And that’s something I like about the mechanics and the psychology of stock markets. For instance, if everybody knew what the true and fair value of any stock is going to be, there would be no need for a market per se. It would always be a fixed price. And you could just that’s it. You don’t need a price finding mechanism for that. Then often even bad news, which are objectively bad, like, we’ve had a few leading Swiss banks recently have a record probably of bad news, and sometimes you have the stock price go up, like, hey, we just let go thousands of people. Okay, cool. The stock price goes up. Right. And the question is always, like, why? The answer is most often, if not always, is reduced uncertainty? Because now it’s a fact because most likely analysts have been expecting even worse. And the fact that it was less, even though they have let go, whatever, five K people, oh, it was less than expected, so that’s good news. So the rate goes up again, the stock price goes up.
[32:25] Elijah: Right.
[32:26] Oliver: So this has always fascinated me and it took me a while to like, I don’t know, at least that’s my assumption. That’s the reason behind that, that actually objectively bad news can still be subjectively.
[32:38] Elijah: Good or better than expected by reducing uncertainty. I think that happened. So I’m probably spreading fake news. I think that happened to buyer when they bought Monsanto roundup. Does that trigger anything? And I think there was some pending lawsuits or something like that. And then, yeah, sure, they got settled or they got whatever, and the sum was less than expected or potentially anticipated, and then I think the price went up. I think I’m wrong, but I can totally see what you’re saying. So information is valuable. Going back to Eric, the one that learns the fastest wins, I thought was one of these great quotes.
[33:26] Oliver: Absolutely.
[33:27] Elijah: So what are we doing? Yeah, we’re trying to make sure people learn the right thing at the right time. And by now we’re trying to make sure that happens more efficiently.
[33:40] Oliver: Exactly, yeah. Now, I really believe the skill to unlearn and relearn and then learn at fastest speed possible is probably the 21st century skill to master is really that. And I think the way we perceive uncertainty and the tool set and probably also skill set that go with navigating uncertainty, managing innovation and accounting of innovation for that matter, are key to that. By that same token, I believe ultimately for me, it always comes down to how can you create as much value for people the planet and create prosperity rather than just profits. It’s just a driving force for me and has been to degree my purpose to really unleash that potential within people. And that’s why I like to call them pioneers. I believe we can all be pioneers. All kids are inherently curious and want to know how things work. And I think we can rekindle that curiosity within ourselves and link from curiosity to then understanding. And by understanding also empathizing with others and creating win win situations based on what you just said then like the fastest learner wins. I believe ultimately, hopefully we’ll get beyond that competitive mindset and come much more into a collaborative co creation kind of mindset where it’s not who wins, it’s more like how can we create value together, how can we create win win outcomes ideally. So that’s another thing that I realize I’m passionate about and I always try to make happen that it’s not necessarily about winning. In the case of Bayer, I actually had the pleasure of working with the team within Bayer on alternatives for reading. And I mean that was an exciting time and experience at the heart of that. And yes, we were following closely what is happening like with lawsuit here and there, etc. But to see how passionate and how authentically purpose these people were to just trying to find a solution for that problem to feed people on the planet better. It wasn’t about getting rid of the bad herbs and the animals, attacking the crop. It was really about how can we optimize outcome like the yield of a certain given month of earth, of terrain to feed, whether it’s cattle, whether it’s ultimately of course also people. And that was exciting. And yes, I guess Monsanto and Roundup, that was a significant challenge for these teams and I have the utmost respect for the way they were going about dealing with that. And I was really grateful to be able to at least support a little bit with Lean innovation stuff. Again.
[37:02] Elijah: Yeah, what next is a possible question right now. I always think and maybe for the podcast, right? So my last podcast with India was pretty interesting because I think it’s just great, right? I think it’s just great, an amazing to listen to so many good things, to help so many teams along and get better. But I found myself because again, what am I doing at this podcast? I want to learn also for myself and we want to provide sort of niche value and want to go even further, right? If possible. Anyway, I find myself disagreeing and it felt really weird. It felt it felt really odd. But I think that kind of want to create an environment where I can do that. I would like to respectfully and.
[38:23] Oliver: Just challenging.
[38:25] Elijah: Yeah. Good question.
[38:30] Oliver: More debates.
[38:31] Elijah: Yeah. To allow that. Yeah. I just want to learn, and that’s what I want to deliver. Right. Having Eric on the show and maybe not agreeing, can you explain that to me? That doesn’t make sense to me. Could you unpack that for me? Maybe even staying with we both don’t know. That’s problematic for you.
[38:58] Oliver: It sounds natural to me as an approach to learning and to understand better is like, you want to steal, man. It in a way. You want to poke holes into stuff that you don’t maybe understand enough to get a better understanding or get to a conclusion of, like, well, it’s working progress. Right.
[39:17] Elijah: And again, not because that shouldn’t be sort of what I want to do with the show. I just would like to have that ability, because back to what we did with Tendayi, that show has been haunting me. We spoke about storytelling, and I’ve got a critical perspective, and we touched on that earlier, before the show. We spoke a bit about it. Right. But it has really, like, the ability to he actually said, no, let’s do it. It was tricky. Right. He felt how tricky it was. He said no. Do it. Right. Okay. So I tried to do it, and it has been very impactful, very impactful. And without doing it, I would have not changed. You know what I mean? Right. Now, when I’m stuck with this, can I change my mind or something? And I’m still not hold okay.
[40:16] Oliver: I’m not sure I see the juxtaposition between delivering a value, creating value and challenging something or trying to get to the bottom of a concept that you may not sufficiently understand or that you may to agree, disagree with. I think that both goes really nicely together because you are, by doing so, exploring it further, strengthen it, polishing it, maybe even contributing to adjusting it. Who knows?
[40:45] Elijah: That’s true. Then maybe the problem really is that I don’t want to be like disrespectful is a strong word, isn’t it? I don’t want to invite somebody on the show and then them having to feel like I’m taking apart what they’re saying. You know what I mean? I’m not saying I’m capable. You know how curious I am back to what we said in the beginning, like, how fired up I am, how much I care about some of these things too much, maybe just want to understand.
[41:19] Oliver: Coming from a place of understanding that’s it coming from a place of wanting to understand and respectfully exploring and digging deeper. I believe that is valid, that is respectful, and that creates value at the same time. And I wouldn’t assume that anyone would, you know, if respectfully done, that anyone would feel bothered by that. And again, if then you can adjust the course of the interview or of the conversation.
[41:57] Elijah: Yeah. And I always say we don’t have to publish the show, or I recently said, I’m trying to make it very clear, like, we don’t have to publish the show. I cut everything out. You don’t want to be having there, that’s for sure. Right? Definitely. I would never do that. Maybe I need to just make that a lot clearer and make sure it’s Frank better. Yeah. Thank you. Because you’ve got to go soon, right?
[42:26] Oliver: Yeah.
[42:27] Elijah: Now, I hope this has been of some value to someone, but I felt like for this one episode, I might not care as much as usually and just review it a bit and still talk innovation, which we did.
[42:48] Oliver: I like how personal you made it and how your personal learnings, and I guess you were really vulnerable. I appreciate that. I believe it takes courage, or it does take courage, and it’s also going back to innovation again, Brene Brown, she said, vulnerability is the birthplace of creativity, change and innovation or creativity, innovation and change. And I love that quote. I believe it’s so true. If you’re not vulnerable again to the uncertainty being there and you try and kind of, like, make it perfect, it’s not going to happen. There’s not going to be innovation or creativity or anything. It’s just one number. There’s not even a range right back to what you said. Yeah. I really like that. We enjoyed that.
[43:38] Elijah: Thank you. Yeah. Sometimes I think I need another podcast. Sometimes I think, did I tell you that idea about, like, it just can’t happen. It just can’t happen. But I would like to have a podcast called Corporate Innovation horror Stories.
[43:58] Oliver: Inspired by reality.
[44:00] Elijah: Inspired by Reality. Because it’s just so hard. It’s just so much insane stuff happening and just go like you know what I mean? This is interesting to listen to, and it’s like, I just looked more personal because I’m so interested in people, but you can’t really say anything of substance really publicly. The other thing that always would worry me here is that I don’t want this to be some gossip thing. Like, X did this and that manager did that, and just like, I don’t want that. That’s like another little dream podcast. I just don’t know how to make it happen. Maybe if anybody out there has an idea how to make it happen, let me know.
[44:42] Oliver: You can start with an episode and then take it from there. It doesn’t have to be a whole different kind of thing. It can be like an experiment, like a sub, whatever branch of this podcast.
[44:56] Elijah: Yeah. So if anybody’s out there still listening to this and wants to tell the corporate Innovation horror story, let me know. Take it from there. Okay, done.
[45:09] Oliver: There you go.
[45:10] Elijah: Thank you, Oliver. I really want to let you go to give you maybe the chance for a cup of tea or a glass of water before your next one. Thank you so much for taking doing this with me. Really appreciate it.
[45:20] Oliver: Thank you. Man. It’s been a pleasure and an honor, seriously. And let’s catch up soon and totally geek out on all the other stuff.